Even worse, had it been a mandatory referendum it could have been challenged for malpractice, and would almost certainly have been annulled. That couldn't be done for an advisory one, so it got treated as more binding than a mandatory one would have done! 😡
As well as a death of Brexit voters it’s also worth noting that nobody born this century got a say in our EU membership, which I find astonishing, particularly as it dawns on them what they’ve lost. A young guy at my gym was amazed when I told him I’d lived in Spain for nine years when I was his age.
Oh (((Bear))) YES! And thrice times yes! Truly, Brexit was the worst political decision in my lifetime, and there have been many, and I'm old! I actually cried when the result came through! I know I'm in a minority group as an actor, but apart from everything you've mentioned, we now need special, hard to acquire, visas, to work in Europe. Many film jobs are being posted within the UK with 'EU passport holders only'. My wonderful nephew longed to work in Europe. Now that's almost impossible. The best dentist I ever had was Turkish. He had to leave the country. I could go on, but even writing this, depresses me! ❤️🐻 Xx ps You're not quite fully integrated! 😉😁 After losing our last beloved rescue cats, I'm now a cat sitter! Every single feline I've looked after, has wanted breakfast around 5am! 😹😹😹
Well said Bear and the other contributors listed . I have failed for a pretty long time now to find a reason why Labour hasn’t gone after that corrupt grifting Brexit leader & his fellow rich list . Please find the guts to do it now that the elephant is moving into the room head first with a huge push behind him / her.
Absolutely true. Maybe you have a clearer view from not being personally involved at the time. Mind you, some of us did have a clear view. It was always obvious that Brexit would cost us dear. But many people were desperate for change (and still are). They should have been more careful what they wished for.
And, in my view, this is yet another illustration of the stupidity of this media generated crisis of confidence in Starmer. He knows we have to align with the EU for the sake of our economy and Burnham appears to be quietly of similar mind. Streeting thinks his version will put him in No10 without actually looking at the detail changes required to rejoin, possibly including adoption of the Euro. His own party members in some regions will not agree with him and which makes his case another self-destructive element of the current phantom crisis unless he is hoping it will stop Burnham winning election in a constituency that supported Brexit. It is absolutely clear to me that Starmer is currently the right person in the right job willing and able to actually learn from earlier mistakes. The campaigns of the local elections allowed themselves to be deflected away from local issues councillors actually deal with to the excitement of the hateful prejudice against immigrants of all origins and ludicrous accusations against Starmer's integrity. The government needs to get on with finding the best way to correct the imbalances of our society and stop the old style "class" faction warfare.
However, I suspect that the terms of re-entry - increased membership fees, no special UK carve-outs, single currency, free movement of people, etc - would not be palatable to many and the polls showing support would take a hit when faced with reality.
We may be facing ‘buyer’s remorse’ over our decision to leave, but I suspect that many people responding to the polls are wishing for a return to ‘the way things were’. This seems no more realistic for us than it does for (some of) those who voted for Brexit for a return to a pre-1973 Britain.
By all means let’s have the discussion- but let’s acknowledge that the calculation of return is likely to require paying a much higher cost (and so a worst deal) than we left on. This will be a bitter pill to swallow - for Leavers and Remainers alike. Not acknowledging this reality is a barrier to making serious progress towards our shared objective to return.
While I agree that Labour needs a proper debate about the EU I think the next few weeks are too soon.
You may think I am cynical but I suspect Streeting has raised this to scupper Burnham’s chance of election in Makerfield. In the council elections all but one of the seats were won by Reform. At the time of the Referendum it was very strongly pro Leave. Burnham has a tough fight on his hands without making Brexit an issue - he is already playing it down. Streeting is unlikely to unseat Starmer if it is a straight vote between them but he is even more unlikely to win if Burnham is in the ballot. In those circumstances Burnham is the most likely winner.
The time for a proper debate is after the present shenanigans are over. Even then I do not expect the EU to be very helpful as it will not want to be in too deep whilst there remains a distinct possibility of Reform being the next government.
So much of the Brexit campaigning was bullshit. I worked in the SW Regional office of the Environment Agency and in our dept we had the ‘ForeignOffice’ whose job it was to go to Brussels with applications for money for projects, such as water quality, waste. Not terribly exciting but money needed because our Defra funding wasn’t enough. So we also became aware of things like Disadvantaged Zones such as Cornwall’!’ Which Europe gave money to. ( Very interesting looking at a map of Europe to see that the zones include areas of Britain as well as Eastern Europe).
So one of the first things to happen after the result was that Cornwall, which had campaigned to leave, wanted to get their grant from the U.K. government instead! You couldn’t make it up. So lies and misinformation, political misjudgement the bloody media. It was a shit show. But we, the Remainers, still thought we’d win. And yes I cried too.
I think it should indeed be thrust down Farage’s throat but let’s not forget the 2 toads in Tory ranks Boris and also Michael Gove. They really didn’t expect to win and supposedly Boris had written 2 speeches, one for winning, one for losing. Gutless creep.
Totally agreed, Farage was not the only clown in the circus, but the other two clowns have (typically) slunk off to screw up something else, so Farage is the remaining one (oh, the irony!) still prattling on about it whilst trousering the pension from the organisation he campaigned against. Head on a spike is the best I’d offer him!
I hate Brexit with a passion. Always have, always will. Apparently as l have read since the beginning it is primarily down to us nasty older people who were Leavers. Not me, not my friends, nor a huge number of those l have spoken to over the years. The sheer bloody stupidity of it. I still have people quoting Boris’s lie about straight bananas. Yes he did. No the EU didn’t.
Will l ever forget David Davies going into negotiate with not a scrap of paper in front of him? Or the government not having thought through the N Ireland difficulties. The Boris Bridge. No one thought of our musicians and actors who had to get a licence for each country they travelled through meaning many of them lost the capacity to do so because of cost. The Erasmus programme. The inability to travel freely through Europe. The blizzard of paperwork which buried many small businesses. Get the picture. I remember the newspaper articles about homeowners abroad who voted Leave and then found they couldn’t go to their homes as easily as they had before. Didn’t they read anything.
This may sound like froth on top of a coffee but it isn’t. It’s to do with the joy which is as important as all the other deeper political stuff. It felt to me at the time it was about giving the EU a bloody nose. The rhetoric of ‘ they need us more than we need them’ Remember. Well that went well didn’t it? I lived in France for 10 years and loved it. My son has a worldwide business. Moved it to the continent before Brexit as he could see what was coming.
I think it’s sad. Really sad that the government is so timid and careful that they saw the sunset through and not the sunrise. We lost a lot through Brexit because of False Prophets. Jeez what a waste.
My bugbear (ha ha) is that the Brexit ref was held as an 'advisory' ref... and then was treated as a mandate.
Had it been a proper mandate ref, it wouldn't have passed because the yes/no split wasn't large enough.
Even worse, had it been a mandatory referendum it could have been challenged for malpractice, and would almost certainly have been annulled. That couldn't be done for an advisory one, so it got treated as more binding than a mandatory one would have done! 😡
Yep.
Even invisible elephants in the room produce a shitload of ordure. People cannot hold their noses forever - not even the Labour Party.
As well as a death of Brexit voters it’s also worth noting that nobody born this century got a say in our EU membership, which I find astonishing, particularly as it dawns on them what they’ve lost. A young guy at my gym was amazed when I told him I’d lived in Spain for nine years when I was his age.
They didn’t expect to win and when they did latched onto it and with the help of the right wing Brexit media and owned the battlefield.
Time, catastrophe and the political and media circus noir created by Brexit are getting tired.
What is required is a clear sighted, competent, leader who states clearly “it was wrong, rubbish and we are going to rejoin”.
Don’t like it go elsewhere.
And introduce Levinson 2.
Every word of this with bells on, Bear.
Oh (((Bear))) YES! And thrice times yes! Truly, Brexit was the worst political decision in my lifetime, and there have been many, and I'm old! I actually cried when the result came through! I know I'm in a minority group as an actor, but apart from everything you've mentioned, we now need special, hard to acquire, visas, to work in Europe. Many film jobs are being posted within the UK with 'EU passport holders only'. My wonderful nephew longed to work in Europe. Now that's almost impossible. The best dentist I ever had was Turkish. He had to leave the country. I could go on, but even writing this, depresses me! ❤️🐻 Xx ps You're not quite fully integrated! 😉😁 After losing our last beloved rescue cats, I'm now a cat sitter! Every single feline I've looked after, has wanted breakfast around 5am! 😹😹😹
Well said Bear and the other contributors listed . I have failed for a pretty long time now to find a reason why Labour hasn’t gone after that corrupt grifting Brexit leader & his fellow rich list . Please find the guts to do it now that the elephant is moving into the room head first with a huge push behind him / her.
Absolutely true. Maybe you have a clearer view from not being personally involved at the time. Mind you, some of us did have a clear view. It was always obvious that Brexit would cost us dear. But many people were desperate for change (and still are). They should have been more careful what they wished for.
And, in my view, this is yet another illustration of the stupidity of this media generated crisis of confidence in Starmer. He knows we have to align with the EU for the sake of our economy and Burnham appears to be quietly of similar mind. Streeting thinks his version will put him in No10 without actually looking at the detail changes required to rejoin, possibly including adoption of the Euro. His own party members in some regions will not agree with him and which makes his case another self-destructive element of the current phantom crisis unless he is hoping it will stop Burnham winning election in a constituency that supported Brexit. It is absolutely clear to me that Starmer is currently the right person in the right job willing and able to actually learn from earlier mistakes. The campaigns of the local elections allowed themselves to be deflected away from local issues councillors actually deal with to the excitement of the hateful prejudice against immigrants of all origins and ludicrous accusations against Starmer's integrity. The government needs to get on with finding the best way to correct the imbalances of our society and stop the old style "class" faction warfare.
I would vote to rejoin the EU today.
However, I suspect that the terms of re-entry - increased membership fees, no special UK carve-outs, single currency, free movement of people, etc - would not be palatable to many and the polls showing support would take a hit when faced with reality.
We may be facing ‘buyer’s remorse’ over our decision to leave, but I suspect that many people responding to the polls are wishing for a return to ‘the way things were’. This seems no more realistic for us than it does for (some of) those who voted for Brexit for a return to a pre-1973 Britain.
By all means let’s have the discussion- but let’s acknowledge that the calculation of return is likely to require paying a much higher cost (and so a worst deal) than we left on. This will be a bitter pill to swallow - for Leavers and Remainers alike. Not acknowledging this reality is a barrier to making serious progress towards our shared objective to return.
It's like there's an omerta on the whole subject.
The true extent of the damage should be discussed openly and Farage needs to be continually blamed for the dire state we're in.
While I agree that Labour needs a proper debate about the EU I think the next few weeks are too soon.
You may think I am cynical but I suspect Streeting has raised this to scupper Burnham’s chance of election in Makerfield. In the council elections all but one of the seats were won by Reform. At the time of the Referendum it was very strongly pro Leave. Burnham has a tough fight on his hands without making Brexit an issue - he is already playing it down. Streeting is unlikely to unseat Starmer if it is a straight vote between them but he is even more unlikely to win if Burnham is in the ballot. In those circumstances Burnham is the most likely winner.
The time for a proper debate is after the present shenanigans are over. Even then I do not expect the EU to be very helpful as it will not want to be in too deep whilst there remains a distinct possibility of Reform being the next government.
So much of the Brexit campaigning was bullshit. I worked in the SW Regional office of the Environment Agency and in our dept we had the ‘ForeignOffice’ whose job it was to go to Brussels with applications for money for projects, such as water quality, waste. Not terribly exciting but money needed because our Defra funding wasn’t enough. So we also became aware of things like Disadvantaged Zones such as Cornwall’!’ Which Europe gave money to. ( Very interesting looking at a map of Europe to see that the zones include areas of Britain as well as Eastern Europe).
So one of the first things to happen after the result was that Cornwall, which had campaigned to leave, wanted to get their grant from the U.K. government instead! You couldn’t make it up. So lies and misinformation, political misjudgement the bloody media. It was a shit show. But we, the Remainers, still thought we’d win. And yes I cried too.
Like Barbara and Scotland, we in Liverpool voted to remain. Brexit has damaged us immeasurably. You missed David Cameron out of the guilty list…
Yes! The Brexit "Elephant in the Room" needs to be rammed remorselessly down Farages' throat, and his face rubbed into whatever of it he throws up!
I think it should indeed be thrust down Farage’s throat but let’s not forget the 2 toads in Tory ranks Boris and also Michael Gove. They really didn’t expect to win and supposedly Boris had written 2 speeches, one for winning, one for losing. Gutless creep.
Totally agreed, Farage was not the only clown in the circus, but the other two clowns have (typically) slunk off to screw up something else, so Farage is the remaining one (oh, the irony!) still prattling on about it whilst trousering the pension from the organisation he campaigned against. Head on a spike is the best I’d offer him!
I hate Brexit with a passion. Always have, always will. Apparently as l have read since the beginning it is primarily down to us nasty older people who were Leavers. Not me, not my friends, nor a huge number of those l have spoken to over the years. The sheer bloody stupidity of it. I still have people quoting Boris’s lie about straight bananas. Yes he did. No the EU didn’t.
Will l ever forget David Davies going into negotiate with not a scrap of paper in front of him? Or the government not having thought through the N Ireland difficulties. The Boris Bridge. No one thought of our musicians and actors who had to get a licence for each country they travelled through meaning many of them lost the capacity to do so because of cost. The Erasmus programme. The inability to travel freely through Europe. The blizzard of paperwork which buried many small businesses. Get the picture. I remember the newspaper articles about homeowners abroad who voted Leave and then found they couldn’t go to their homes as easily as they had before. Didn’t they read anything.
This may sound like froth on top of a coffee but it isn’t. It’s to do with the joy which is as important as all the other deeper political stuff. It felt to me at the time it was about giving the EU a bloody nose. The rhetoric of ‘ they need us more than we need them’ Remember. Well that went well didn’t it? I lived in France for 10 years and loved it. My son has a worldwide business. Moved it to the continent before Brexit as he could see what was coming.
I think it’s sad. Really sad that the government is so timid and careful that they saw the sunset through and not the sunrise. We lost a lot through Brexit because of False Prophets. Jeez what a waste.