Personally, following the Mandelson fiasco, I don't find Starmer - bashing that difficult to understand, although my reasons for doing so are probably different to those of the typical Reformer.
I find I can get a less oppositional reaction from them if I focus on Farage's links to Trump and his tendency to toady to big donors. We have common ground in the need to deal with "the elites", we just identify those elites differently - but that can be worked with.
Except people ARE imprisoned for free speech - 500+ arrested over the weekend, for example, for supporting Palestine Action. That's another possible area of common ground that can be worked with.
They are imprisoned for supporting a proscribed organisation, not for free speech. It is always an offence to advocate for proscribed organisations, pretty much everywhere. There is a worthwhile argument about whether Palestine Action SHOULD have been banned (I think not) but it is a different argument.
I'm not sure that iit's nitpicking. One of the research findings on extremist views is that they are more effectively combated by questioning than by counter-argument, which tends to entrench people more firmly in their views. Asking them what their views are based on tends to make them realise that they don't know. They probably won't admit it at the time, but it has a gradual moderating effect. Questioning people's views does mean being precise, though - attack on too broad a front at once and you're likely to get a defensive response.
So, would you say this brief interaction with Jacky is a good example of this approach? It feels like you both raise important points about the free speech debate, which speaks (sic) to the core of Jaki's argument about how certain issues are being exploited but also contain reasonable cores.
I am in the online trenches on this one and am finding it almost impossible to have a rational conversation with any REFUK-er. Some of them just don’t care. They are angry and frightened, have a visceral hatred of Starmer and believe the local elections are the equivalent of a general election. We lost people the moment Reeves nuked WFA and then left activists to figure out how to spin it - an impossible task. And then piled on the anguish with a combination of stupid (as in economically illiterate) and unpopular moves. All a perfect gift for a well honed marketing machine aka Nigel Farage’s US fuelled Reform.
Of one thing you are bang on. Labour has no idea how to handle criticism except with the blunt instruments of censoriousness, arrogance and silence, covering over a deep insecurity. It is tragic.
I feel like shouting "Amen". There's a lot to unpack in this. Simply put, this is spot on. It's a pity we're stuck in a bit of an echo chamber right now, but this highlights a fundamental fact - we need to revisit our attitudes towards Reform voters as much as anything else.
Farage is the only one who has really recognised the level of anger felt by many. Yes, he is exploiting that. That's his MO. I hope you don't mind though, Claire, your article has prompted a more detailed response for consideration.
Spot on. I live on a Reform leaning estate and am doing my best to engage. This resonates fully “ To get across that Reform policy actually endangers Reformers themselves, campaigners have first to counter the Reformer’s preconceptions. This involves, amongst other things, being genuinely receptive to their cynicism and sense of disempowerment, and showing willingness to grasp the Reformer’s viewpoint, including on difficult matters like race and Starmer loathing”
We in Wales are having NATIONAL not LOCAL elections to form a Government. 16 regions (some newly formed) will elect 6 representatives in each region.
Scope and coverage varies…local press, national press, social media, canvassing, hustings, televised debating…
The characters regularly covered by a certain party, vocalising in the press, on national tv will play no part in the ACTUAL Senedd, however, they seem to feel that it is they that dictate the future direction that Wales adopts. A bit like visiting political figures offering foreign influence 🤬
My perception, is that the success of the far right has been built on social ‘toxic’ media, not policy, perpetuated by MSM and amplified by the RW press.
A toothless OFCOM, a lack of Leveson 2 and a willingness of the present UK govt to align with this, leaves politicians having to be ‘strongmen/women/non-binary’ in the areas that are favourable to the media industry.
If we wish a ‘Great Britain’ of tolerance, understanding, accountability, empathy, cohesion, diversity, safety, pity, those that profligate rage, hate, blame, ‘flag shagging’, need to be addressed and the message has to be allowed to get out on all MSM and Press publications front pages. (Not the manufactured click bait crap)🤬
When you kick a can down the road it creates a noise, when there are many cans being kicked it becomes a racket, QED ReForm, a racketeering gang of charlatans that profit at the expense of ‘othering’, there’s no place in the Senedd for these ‘grifters’🤬
The problem is that Wales doesn't really have a 'national press' any more. The Western Mail is now in the hands of English owners with barely any Welsh reporters left. Its website is a joke, a perfect example of the clickbaiters you mention. I didn't realise Somerset or Kent were in Wales but that's the way the Western Mail's website portrays things.
We have the Nation as a slight counterbalance, but it has limited resources. This is reflected in the scale and quality of its output. Naturally, this makes it an easy target for Reform.
Overall, this simply underscores the dangers the Welsh electorate faces. With such limited news channels available, making informed decisions is incredibly difficult.
I agree, It frustrates me, the member from Clacton electioneering here to promote his interests is akin to all the shills that recently visited Hungary to back their fancied runner, let us hope the same result occurs.
The key, it would seem, to challenging this influence is people actually exercising their vote, now more than ever.
Personally, following the Mandelson fiasco, I don't find Starmer - bashing that difficult to understand, although my reasons for doing so are probably different to those of the typical Reformer.
I find I can get a less oppositional reaction from them if I focus on Farage's links to Trump and his tendency to toady to big donors. We have common ground in the need to deal with "the elites", we just identify those elites differently - but that can be worked with.
It isn't just propaganda from 'uk' media
USA media constantly hits the Internet with fear tactics.
Knife crime is everywhere
Khan has introduced sharia law in Londonistan
They constantly attack SKS.
We are over taxed.
NHS is useless, long waiting times. 200% exaggeration
Imprisoned over 'free speech'
Except people ARE imprisoned for free speech - 500+ arrested over the weekend, for example, for supporting Palestine Action. That's another possible area of common ground that can be worked with.
They are imprisoned for supporting a proscribed organisation, not for free speech. It is always an offence to advocate for proscribed organisations, pretty much everywhere. There is a worthwhile argument about whether Palestine Action SHOULD have been banned (I think not) but it is a different argument.
That is, of course, completely true.
And it's equally true that jailing people for encouraging criminal behaviour on line is also not a "free speech" issue.
But nitpicking isn't going to get you very far in discussions with Reformers.
I'm not sure that iit's nitpicking. One of the research findings on extremist views is that they are more effectively combated by questioning than by counter-argument, which tends to entrench people more firmly in their views. Asking them what their views are based on tends to make them realise that they don't know. They probably won't admit it at the time, but it has a gradual moderating effect. Questioning people's views does mean being precise, though - attack on too broad a front at once and you're likely to get a defensive response.
So, would you say this brief interaction with Jacky is a good example of this approach? It feels like you both raise important points about the free speech debate, which speaks (sic) to the core of Jaki's argument about how certain issues are being exploited but also contain reasonable cores.
I am in the online trenches on this one and am finding it almost impossible to have a rational conversation with any REFUK-er. Some of them just don’t care. They are angry and frightened, have a visceral hatred of Starmer and believe the local elections are the equivalent of a general election. We lost people the moment Reeves nuked WFA and then left activists to figure out how to spin it - an impossible task. And then piled on the anguish with a combination of stupid (as in economically illiterate) and unpopular moves. All a perfect gift for a well honed marketing machine aka Nigel Farage’s US fuelled Reform.
Of one thing you are bang on. Labour has no idea how to handle criticism except with the blunt instruments of censoriousness, arrogance and silence, covering over a deep insecurity. It is tragic.
I feel like shouting "Amen". There's a lot to unpack in this. Simply put, this is spot on. It's a pity we're stuck in a bit of an echo chamber right now, but this highlights a fundamental fact - we need to revisit our attitudes towards Reform voters as much as anything else.
Farage is the only one who has really recognised the level of anger felt by many. Yes, he is exploiting that. That's his MO. I hope you don't mind though, Claire, your article has prompted a more detailed response for consideration.
https://timmorous.substack.com/p/considering-crossing-the-divide?r=2ldn9z&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Spot on. I live on a Reform leaning estate and am doing my best to engage. This resonates fully “ To get across that Reform policy actually endangers Reformers themselves, campaigners have first to counter the Reformer’s preconceptions. This involves, amongst other things, being genuinely receptive to their cynicism and sense of disempowerment, and showing willingness to grasp the Reformer’s viewpoint, including on difficult matters like race and Starmer loathing”
I’ll do my best!
We in Wales are having NATIONAL not LOCAL elections to form a Government. 16 regions (some newly formed) will elect 6 representatives in each region.
Scope and coverage varies…local press, national press, social media, canvassing, hustings, televised debating…
The characters regularly covered by a certain party, vocalising in the press, on national tv will play no part in the ACTUAL Senedd, however, they seem to feel that it is they that dictate the future direction that Wales adopts. A bit like visiting political figures offering foreign influence 🤬
My perception, is that the success of the far right has been built on social ‘toxic’ media, not policy, perpetuated by MSM and amplified by the RW press.
A toothless OFCOM, a lack of Leveson 2 and a willingness of the present UK govt to align with this, leaves politicians having to be ‘strongmen/women/non-binary’ in the areas that are favourable to the media industry.
If we wish a ‘Great Britain’ of tolerance, understanding, accountability, empathy, cohesion, diversity, safety, pity, those that profligate rage, hate, blame, ‘flag shagging’, need to be addressed and the message has to be allowed to get out on all MSM and Press publications front pages. (Not the manufactured click bait crap)🤬
When you kick a can down the road it creates a noise, when there are many cans being kicked it becomes a racket, QED ReForm, a racketeering gang of charlatans that profit at the expense of ‘othering’, there’s no place in the Senedd for these ‘grifters’🤬
The problem is that Wales doesn't really have a 'national press' any more. The Western Mail is now in the hands of English owners with barely any Welsh reporters left. Its website is a joke, a perfect example of the clickbaiters you mention. I didn't realise Somerset or Kent were in Wales but that's the way the Western Mail's website portrays things.
We have the Nation as a slight counterbalance, but it has limited resources. This is reflected in the scale and quality of its output. Naturally, this makes it an easy target for Reform.
Overall, this simply underscores the dangers the Welsh electorate faces. With such limited news channels available, making informed decisions is incredibly difficult.
I agree, It frustrates me, the member from Clacton electioneering here to promote his interests is akin to all the shills that recently visited Hungary to back their fancied runner, let us hope the same result occurs.
The key, it would seem, to challenging this influence is people actually exercising their vote, now more than ever.